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Meet Our Team
Jacob Green
Jacob Green, MPA
Jacob Green is a nationally recognized expert in leadership development and crisis management who is passionate about building long-term, effective partnerships. He has spent his career helping public and private organizations navigate crises, enhance service delivery, and build strong, resilient teams.
During his time as a city executive, he helped oversee 1,200 employees and a $500 million budget. He is now a consultant, speaker, trainer, and coach who has worked with many public and private organizations, including Mattel, FedEx, Hyundai Capital, and the United States Air Force.
He is also the author of See Change Clearly, an Amazon New Release Best Selling Book and a #1 Amazon New Release in five business categories.
Nicole Beach
Strategic Initiatives
Nicole Beach
Strategic Initiatives
Nicole Beach is a Project Management and Strategic Portfolio leader who helps organizations realize value by tying strategy to execution. Her greatest strengths lie in supporting teams to achieve measurable and lasting outcomes through effective project delivery. Over the last 15 years, Nicole has led complex technology, organizational, and strategic projects including M&A integrations, ERP implementations, and process improvement initiatives. Most recently, Nicole oversaw Project Management Offices and Strategic Portfolio Management for Safebuilt, Citrix, and Sport Clips. Nicole is PMP and SAFe certified, a Lean Six Sigma Green Belt, and holds an MBA (Process Improvement Concentration) from Nova Southeastern University.
Nicole Ramet
Professional Development
Nicole Ramet
Professional Development
Nicole is dedicated to coaching that produces results. A seasoned coach, she brings over a decade of professional experience and insight to our leadership development.
Utilizing the “Brief Coaching” philosophy developed by Insoo Kim Berg and Peter Szabo, Nicole oversees the JGA coaching team to ensure that our coaching services target predefined goals and remain outcome-focused.
She also incorporates the AEM-Cube Team Dynamics assessment into JGA’s coaching services so our clients are equipped to develop insights about their own talents and strategic contributions to their team.
Nicoli Hilscher
Nicoli Hilscher
Nicoli Hilscher is a highly effective, cross-functional leader overseeing operations, professional development, and recognition programs for organizations ranging from 20 to 300+ personnel.
A veteran of the United States Air Force, Nicoli has an extensive background in Emergency Management, Command and Control (C2), Leadership Development, Project Management, and Instructional Development. She has a Top Secret, SCI security clearance and has provided professional oversight on several classified operations throughout her military career.
As a military instructor, she developed curriculum for multiple Community College of the Air Force affiliated courses. She also held several leadership-level positions internationally.
John Andrews
Economic Development
John Andrews
Economic Development
During his public service career, John Andrews worked on a variety of economic development programs as well as the formation and amendment of redevelopment project areas and plans. He also worked on retail, commercial, industrial, and affordable housing projects.
Additionally, he represented two local agencies on Business Improvement District boards and participated in the development and implementation of comprehensive downtown revitalization strategies.
Before retiring in September 2020, he served with four Southern California municipal agencies: Ontario, Pasadena, Azusa, and Riverside. He currently serves as an economic development advisor to the City of Ontario.
Lisa Bartlett
Organizational Development
Lisa Bartlett, MBA
Organization Development
Lisa Bartlett is a proven and skilled leader in both the private and public sector. For decades she has led teams, delivered results, and set the highest standards of excellence. She held executive positions in a technology company, project management firm and several law firms. During her tenure in the public sector, she was elected and served on the city council and most recently, as a County Supervisor on the Orange County Board of Supervisors, providing governance to the 6th largest county in the country. She has extensive expertise and experience in the areas of healthcare, transportation, technology, administration, public safety, infrastructure, coastline projects/issues and public-private partnerships (P3) and is driven to streamline delivery of projects and initiatives while improving organizational effectiveness.
Lisa has served on several statewide boards including the California State Association of Counties (CSAC), serving as its President in 2020 and continues to serve on the California Transportation Commission (CTC), Technical Advisory Committee for Road Usage Charge. Lisa holds a Bachelor’s degree in Finance and an MBA from Pepperdine University. She is also a licensed real estate Broker. She is passionate about her community and is involved with several local non-profits.
Jim Biery
Organizational Development
Jim Biery
Organizational Development
Jim spent his 40+ year career as a Public Works Exec and City Engineer for numerous Southern California agencies (Buena Park, Torrance, Monrovia, South Gate, and Signal Hill) and has spent the last five years as a consultant in the Private Sector. He has a Master’s from California State University, Long Beach – Master of Public Administration (MPA), another Master’s from California State University, Long Beach – Master of Science in Civil Engineering (MSCE), and a Bachelor’s from University of Southern California – Bachelor of Science in Civil Engineering (BSCE). He is a registered Civil Engineer and Traffic Engineer, State of California, and the winner of the James L. Martin Award from the League of California Cities, as the outstanding Public Works Professional in California.
Dave Brown
Police Chief (Ret.)
Dave Brown, MA
Police Chief (Ret.)
Public Safety
Chief Dave Brown [ret.] is passionate about helping public organizations and individuals succeed especially when facing financial, political, or personnel challenges.
He has held command positions in every division of law enforcement and served as Chief of Police for the Hemet, California police department from 2010 – 2017. He’s also served as an assistant city manager and an interim city manager.
In 2017, the City of Menifee, California, recruited Chief Brown to spearhead the creation of the Menifee Police Department. Over the next three years, Brown created and implemented a robust, analysis-driven strategy, successfully launching the new Menifee Police Department on July 1, 2020.
Raymond Cheung, CEM
Raymond Cheung, CEM
Raymond Cheung excels at navigating crises. He has responded to and worked dozens of disasters and Emergency Operations Center activations, including presidentially declared disasters. He is also a veteran of the Marine Corps, who worked in a Civil Affairs capacity to restore civil governance, local infrastructure, and basic humanitarian needs in Iraq during Operation Iraqi Freedom.
Raymond is an International Association of Emergency Management Certified Emergency Manager (CEM) who has led and managed teams at both the county and city level in Southern California. He is also a graduate of FEMA’s National Emergency Management Advanced Academy and the Harvard Kennedy School of Government’s Leadership in Crises executive program.
Tony E. Coletta Jr.
MPA, CEM, MPM
Tony E. Coletta Jr.
MPA, CEM, MPM
Tony is a proven emergency management expert skilled in problem-solving, alliance building, and organizational communication. For over 25 years, he has managed or deployed to state and national level disasters and conducted on-the-ground assessments of international disasters in both Chile and Japan.
During his career, Tony has
- Built robust emergency management teams
- Lead multimillion-dollar regional homeland security programs
- Authored best practice emergency plans
- Led the construction of state-of-the-art Emergency Operations Centers
His Emergency Management expertise includes instructing and course design, emergency operations center design, recruitment and succession planning, strategic planning, grants management, and performance management.
Joe Dingman
Colonel, USAF (Ret.)
Organizational & Leadership Development
Joe Dingman
Colonel, USAF (Ret.)
Organizational & Leadership Development
Joe Dingman is an expert in Organizational and Leadership Development. As a retired Air Force Colonel with over 20 years of distinguished service, Joe spent his career as a chief executive and crisis leader. After graduating from the United States Air Force Academy, he held a variety of positions leading cross-functional teams at the squadron, group, wing, Air Staff and Department of Defense levels. Top military leadership positions included service as a C-17 Wing Commander/Pilot, Secretary of the Air Force Executive Action Group at the Pentagon, Washington D.C. and Deputy Chief, Corporate Liaison Branch, where he was responsible for a program budget in excess of $119 billion dollars.
With a passion for entrepreneurship & community service, he was owner and CEO of his own business, serves on multiple community boards and foundations, and was a founding member of the Avalon Institute Leadership Development firm. Joe Dingman’s vast knowledge of organizational and leadership development along with his extensive local and federal government careers make him a key component to the success of JGA.
Vicki Kasad
Organizational Development
Vicki Kasad
Vicki Kasad has served in local government for over 40 years across five Southern Californian cities, holding positions such as Director of Human Resources and City Clerk while going far beyond the call of duty through her leadership in multiple committees and serving as the Director for Region 6 City Clerks Association of California. Her attention to detail, expert managerial skills, and commitment to the community have garnered her several City Clerk of the Year awards. In addition, Vicki possesses her Bachelor of Science in Workforce Education and Development from Southern Illinois University and holds certifications in Human Resource Management, Master Municipal Clerk, Train the Trainer, and Professional Municipal Clerk from UCR.
Brad Kaylor
Police Chief (Ret.)
Brad Kaylor
Police Chief (Ret.)
Chief Brad Kaylor [ret.] brings a wealth of law enforcement experience and knowledge to the team. He began his career in 1988 and served in a variety of assignments until ultimately being selected as Chief of Police for Ontario, California in 2014.
His many assignments include:
- Field Training Officer
- Special Weapons and Tactics Team (SWAT)
- DEA Task Force Officer and Group Supervisor
- Supervisory/Command positions in Patrol, Investigations, Administration, and Special Operations Bureaus.
Brad has graduated from the San Bernardino County Sheriff’s Academy, the DEA Drug Unit Commanders Academy, and the FBI National Academy and holds a Bachelor’s Degree in Organizational Management from the University of La Verne.
Teri Ledoux
Organizational Development
Teri Ledoux
Organizational Development
Teri Ledoux served in local government for over 25 years. Starting as an unpaid Intern in the City Manager’s Office, Teri quickly realized a passion for serving the community through problem solving, analysis, and most important through teamwork. Holding positions as Analyst, Assistant to the City Manager, Director of Administrative Services, Assistant City Manager and City Manager in 3 cities (within 3 different counties) over her career provided Teri the opportunity to constantly learn and grow. While Teri’s City Manager position came relatively late in her career, she was able to take years of watching and learning from others to work side by side with her team to accomplish what seemed to be impossible.
Teri worked in cities with large and small populations, cities with healthy and not so healthy budgets, and cities with very different issues. This journey led to Teri to return home to the City of San Bernardino late in her career where she was able to lead the City through the final steps of bankruptcy. Her major accomplishment during this time was successfully leading the community engagement effort to replace the expiring .25 ($9M) sales tax measure with a 1% ($40M) sales tax measure. The importance of giving back to our upcoming leaders is a priority for Teri.
Teri holds a Bachelor’s Degree in Business Administration and a Master’s Degree in Public Administration.
Linda Matthews
Organizational Development
Linda Matthews
Organizational Development
Linda Matthews is a proven human resources expert who is passionate about working with management and employees to find win-win solutions for challenging issues. Linda has over 25 years of experience in human resources administration and executive leadership over a wide variety of human resources areas, such as employee and labor relations, classification and compensation, hiring, benefits, and training.
She served as human resources director for the City of Pomona and the City of Ontario. She also held a variety of positions for San Bernardino County and Riverside County. She holds a Bachelor’s in Psychology from UCLA and an MBA from the Drucker School of Management at Claremont Graduate University. She currently serves as the Associate Director of Administration for Shoes that Fit, a non-profit organization, on a part-time basis.
Patrick Marchman
Emergency Management
Patrick Marchman
Emergency Management
Patrick has almost 18 years of experience in the intersection of climate adaptation, resilience, and hazard mitigation planning. His work initially focused on developing and managing NEPA environmental assessments and environmental impact assessments for projects ranging from minor building upgrades to multi-billion-dollar energy projects. Patrick then moved into hazard mitigation and disaster risk reduction planning while working with the U.S. Federal Emergency Management Agency, supporting local, state and national planning efforts and developing the agency’s first climate adaptation toolkit. After a four-year stint managing the environment and real estate programs for the U.S. Federal Highway Administration’s Michigan Division, he shifted to the private sector, supporting climate adaptation and sustainability strategy for a wide range of public and private sector clients.
Since 2011, Patrick has been a member of the American Institute of Certified Planners. He also holds a certification in Sustainability and Climate Risk from the Global Association of Risk Professionals. Patrick has served in leadership roles in several professional and non-profit organizations, including currently on the leadership committees of the Climigration Network, the Natural Hazard Mitigation Association and InnSure, and has a commitment to leading the development and real-world application of new areas of focus within climate adaptation.
Lynn Mata
Emergency Management
Lynn Mata
Emergency Management
Lynn is dedicated to improving emergency management capabilities and cross-organizational collaboration while using resources as efficiently as possible. She has served in public safety, fire services, and as an emergency manager in city and county government. Her work included plan writing, emergency exercises, and the development of local emergency operation and hazard mitigation plans.
She has also:
- Provided staff and community training in emergency operations and response
- Managed robust community volunteer programs and large animal evacuation response teams
- Led the training and administration of the FEMA Community Emergency Response Team (CERT) program.
In addition, Lynn has proven experience in field response to local emergencies. She has been deployed on multiple assignments, including public information officer and the emergency activation of city and county emergency operations centers.
Amanda Mausner
Organizational Development
Amanda Mauser
Organization Development
Amanda has been leading individuals and organizations through change for over 15 years across a variety of industries in both the private and public sectors. She is a certified ICF coach and organizational change consultant, with a focus on leadership development, team effectiveness, learning & development, and culture transformation. Amanda is skilled at developing curriculum and delivering training and coaching to employees and leaders to build skills and capabilities and help them navigate transitions and challenging dynamics. She has also carried out research on organizational change, taught college courses, performed speaking engagements with DisruptHR, and contributed thought-leadership to several publications, including Thrive Global. Amanda has a Master’s degree in Social Sciences from the University of Chicago and a Bachelor’s degree in Sociology from the University of Wisconsin-Madison. Her curiosity and passions have led her to living and working around the globe and she’s also pursued personal interests such as teaching yoga and starting a photography business.
Cindy Nelson
Organizational Development
Cindy Nelson
Organization Development
During her public service career, Cindy Nelson managed one of the largest redevelopment and economic development programs in California. The negotiation and execution of complex development projects included a regional mall, expansion of the Bowers Museum, a new auto center, multiple large-scale retail, office and residential projects, as well as numerous affordable housing projects. Additionally, she managed the Planning and Building department while serving as the Deputy City Manager. Her position also called for financial management of substantial of City, State and Federally-funded programs, staff development, labor union interface and regular participation in high-level policy discussions with elected officials and management staff.
Following retirement in 2011, she has provided real estate development and planning consultant services to other municipalities, including Dana Point, Newport Beach and Anaheim.
Chris Nunley
Police Chief (Ret.)
Public Safety
Chris Nunley
Police Chief (Ret.)
Public Safety
Chief Chris Nunley (retired) has had a passion for public safety for almost his entire life. Chris started his law enforcement career at the age of 14 as a Police Explorer. Chris has served in a variety of positions, which have included Dispatch, Jail, Patrol, Detectives, Traffic, and Administration. Chris retired in September of 2021, after serving five years as the Chief of Police for the Signal Hill, California Police Department. Since retirement, Chris has been working in the private sector in government technology as a project manager for a tier one agency replacing their Jail Management, CAD and RMS system. Chris very much enjoys using his experience to guide the clients through the change management process.
Chris has experience in all aspects of local government including employee training, budgeting, project management, information technology, human resources, collective bargaining, and grant management. Chris also has vast experience in public safety technology projects such as computer aided dispatch and records management system upgrades and replacements, body worn and in car camera implementation, mobile data terminal upgrades and encryption, network creation/upgrades, access control/CCTV, and cyber security breach response. In 2013, Chris was a project manager for the building of a new police facility.
Chris is a graduate of the Sherman Block Supervisory Leadership Institute, the California POST Command College and has a master’s degree in public administration. Chris has served on the board of directors of the Los Angeles Interoperable Radio Communications System (LARICS) project and the Los Angeles Joint Regional Intelligence Center.
Mike Pelletier
Fire Deputy Chief (Ret.)
Mike Pelletier
Public Safety
Mike Pelletier knows public safety projects. He has served as a lead grant writer for over $10M of public safety grants, led Public Information Officer, and led project manager on numerous high-profile public safety projects.
Projects he has overseen include:
- Comprehensive fire station assessment
- Replacement of all frontline fire apparatus
- Complete renovation of five fire stations
- Final design and construction of a $10 million fire training facility.
Mike also served as a Deputy Fire Chief during his last six years in public service.
Terri Rahhal
Organizational Development
Terri Rahhal
Organization Development
Terri recently completed a 37-year career in the public sector, practicing a wide range of urban and regional planning and community development services in San Bernardino and Riverside Counties, as well as the cities of San Bernardino and Corona. In 2022 she retired from San Bernardino County as Land Use Services Director, where she managed building, planning, land development engineering, code enforcement and fire hazard abatement services for the unincorporated areas of this 20,000-square mile county. During her tenure with San Bernardino County, she led the development and adoption of a comprehensive Countywide Plan and 27 Community Action Guides for unincorporated communities. She also oversaw implementation of the County’s first fully digital planning and building permit system.
Terri holds a bachelor’s degree in Economics and an MBA with a Finance concentration from Cal State San Bernardino. As a long-time member of the American Planning Association and the American Institute of Certified Planners, Terri considers herself primarily a planner. She is passionate about building value through community development and enabling public employees to work toward that end. She believes that training, coaching and sharing of authority are the keys to shaking off the bureaucratic stereotypes that plague the public sector.
Jim Ross
Organizational Development
Jim Ross
Jim has supported municipalities and public agencies for more than 35 years, specializing in public works and water departments. His experience includes managing staff of more than 400 people and Capital Improvement budgets of approximately $200 million. A few of his accomplishments include major projects in the City of Santa Ana which included a new Corporation Yard, Police Administration adn Detention Facility and an Annex onto City Hall.
Most recently Jim has focused his expertise on conducting organizational assessments and providing interim support for local governments. Some representative clients include the cities of Fountain Valley, San Juan Capistrano, Encinitas, Newport Beach, Costa Mesa, Wildomar, Carson and The Imperial Irrigation District.
Nichole Amaya
Nichole Amaya
Nichole Amaya is an experienced Executive Assistant based in Orange County. She graduated from San Diego Mesa College with an Associate's Degree in Business Administration. After graduating, she immediately transitioned into an executive assistant role for a startup company in the medical device industry. Through her dedication and support, she played a vital role in the successful acquisition of the company in 2019. Following that role, Nichole ventured into a Project Management position in the Beverage Development space. During this time, she gained valuable experience working with both startup brands and established global brands. Nichole takes pride in her ability to manage and support a diverse array of clients, as well as cross-functional teams.
Meghan Murray
Organizational Development
Meghan Murray
Organizational Development
Meghan Murray’s experience in team leadership, strategic planning, and data-driven decision-making is an incredible asset to our clients. She was a strategic team lead for the Organization of the Future that led to the building of the latest branch of the military, the United States Space Force. Under her direction, the team successfully transitioned over 300 subject matter experts to be the face of the Space Force.
A veteran of the United States Air Force, Meghan holds a Secret clearance and has directed multiple programs valued at $1B while managing risk, safety, and compliance.
Her background includes
- Operations management
- Personnel management
- Executive communication
- Continuous process improvement
Meghan also holds a Masters of Science degree with a specialty in Human Resource Management.
Caprice Robinson
Organizational Development
Caprice Robinson
Organizational Development
Caprice Robinson is an accomplished Professional who has served over 20 years in the United States Air Force. She has experience in organizational leadership, training and development, program management, and operations management. Caprice is a multi-faceted leader who has held various strategic and operational roles within Air Force Healthcare facilities and Air Force Basic Military Training with emphasis on organizational and employee development and regulatory compliance. One of Caprice’s most notable projects was designing an action plan for the Air Force’s Basic Military Training command to allow the accession pipeline to remain open during a world-wide pandemic. Her efforts ensured the Air Force was able to continue to train new recruits safely and was highlighted as a best practice in preventing the spread of the Coronavirus by the Center of Disease Control.
Caprice holds a Bachelor of Science degree in Healthcare Management and certifications in Human Resources and Diversity, Equity and Inclusion.
William Simmons
Emergency Management
William Simmons
Emergency Management
A United States Air Force veteran, William Simmons has an extensive background in crisis mitigation. He has been a key contributor in planning, coordinating, and executing in crisis environments as a Command-and-Control Operator and holds a Secret Clearance.
He has also held multiple positions in program creation and management, including the implementation of a country-wide evacuation plan for civilian family members during the escalation of the North Korean threat in 2017. The plan was successfully showcased in an exercise, during which 1.7k residents were safely processed for evacuation.
He has a Bachelor’s Degree in Homeland Security and Emergency Management and has completed over 20 courses with the FEMA Emergency Management Institute.
Kailee Billerbeck
Kailee Billerbeck
Kailee Billerbeck is an experienced marketing and communications contractor and business owner based in Dallas, Texas. Upon graduating Chapman University with a BA in Psychology, Kailee was a Program Content Director for two business owners. Her ability to innovate, read the needs of consumers, foster robust connections with clients, and think ahead helped her grow several areas of the two companies. Soon after, she put her expertise to the test and started her own business in 2019 from the ground up while serving as the Director of Operations for Jacob Green. Kailee has a passion for finding inventive ways to enact positive change and finding creative, divergent ways to facilitate marketing objectives.
Our Partners
Embassy Consulting Services
Embassy Consulting Services
Embassy Consulting Services’ mission is to help develop and maintain safe, respectful and inclusive communities and organizations. Embassy fulfills this mission by offering youth leadership programs, workplace investigations, and a variety of customized workplace training programs that provide participants the opportunity to strengthen relationships and skills with the goal to improve the quality of their workplace or school environment.
Chief Leadership
Chief Leadership
Chief Leadership’s mission is to help public safety leaders survive and thrive. Founded by retired Tustin Police Chief, Charles Celano, Chief Leadership, is focused on providing premier private and public safety training in the form of keynote speaking, executive coaching and leadership training programs.
Gregory C. Devereaux
Gregory C. Devereaux
Mr. Gregory Devereaux has held a variety of leadership positions in state and local government, including City Manager of both Fontana and Ontario, where he worked with the city councils to improve each city’s finances.
He also served as Chief Executive Officer of San Bernardino County, California, where he and the Board of Supervisors led the County in a new direction that emphasized fiscal responsibility and teamwork.
Mr. Devereaux holds a Juris Doctorate from West Virginia University and is a Fellow at the National Academy of Public Administration.
Insight Management Solutions
Increase the performance and effectiveness of your organization at every level. Gain a deeper understanding of the organization’s strengths and challenges and equip your leaders to achieve strategic goals, build highly effective teams, and execute with confidence and precision.
Our customized solutions include:
- Leadership Team Facilitation (Teambuilding, Goal Setting, Strategic Planning)
- Organizational Assessments & Operational Audits
- Executive Search
- State of the City Development & Management
- Council Facilitation (Goal Setting, Strategic Planning, City Manager & Appointed Staff Evaluations)
- Customized Coaching
- Training Courses
- Leadership Academy Programs
- AEM-Cube Team Assessment
- Keynotes
Equip your organization to calmly and confidently navigate any crisis with expert training and innovative plans for mitigation, preparedness, response, and recovery based on national standards and proven business continuity practices.
Our customized solutions include:
- Comprehensive Emergency Management Services
- Emergency Operations Plans (EOPs)
- Emergency Operations Center (EOC) Design
- Exercise Design & Implementation
- After Action Reports
- EOC Response
- Emergency Management Academy
- EOC Response Support
- Continuity of Operations Plans COOPs)
- Elected Official Training
- EM Assessments & Strategic Plans (Gap Analysis etc.)
- EOC Recovery Support
Complete your high-priority projects without overextending your valuable time and resources. We partner with you to expertly manage projects and enhance performance and efficiency in the critical areas of law enforcement and Fire-EMS services
Our customized solutions include:
- Project Management
- Feasibility Studies
- Contract Management
- Executive Search
- Executive Investigations
- Organizational Assessments/Operational Audits
- Transitional Leadership
- CALEA Certification
Develop a comprehensive, tailored communications strategy and precise, consistent messaging that ensures your community stays well-informed, has accurate context, and receives clear instruction during critical incidents.
Our customized solutions include:
- Holistic communications strategy development including branding, persistent messaging, and social media management
- Public Information Officer coverage and incident media management response
- Interpersonal communication skills development for staff
- Crisis communications planning tailored to the specific needs of each community
- State of the City delivery including event planning, post-event networking, and community messaging
- Council, executive & staff communications training
The See Change Clearly Keynote
Building Resilient Teams
Available In-Person or Virtually
This customizable keynote equips your organization to embrace culture and operational changes with a new perspective on challenge and adversity. Jacob shares proven tools and tactics developed during his grueling recovery from a traumatic brain injury after interrupting a robbery.
This Program is Perfect for Executives Who Are:
- In the midst of organizational change and need to inspire and energize their teams
- About to implement a major company-wide policy or technology that will require alignment
- Seeking ways to help your top performers take their results to the next level and stick around through your company’s continued growth
Your Audience Will Leave With:
- A fired-up team with the skills to protect their internal fire, no matter how it is challenged by today’s changing economy.
- Resources and tools that can be implemented immediately following the keynote
- An authentic, fresh message to sustain their motivation.
- A new perspective on change as something to conquer instead of something to avoid.